Posts by defender of truth

76

WT loses appeal in UK!!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

the wt lost its appeals regarding the charity commission inquiry.

here is the ruling:.

http://www.charity.tribunals.gov.uk/documents/decisions/watch-tower-ruling-03mar15.pdf.

defender of truth

Your welcome, Xanthippe.

Here it is again for any who missed it..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jehovahs-witness-abuse-victims-quizzed-by-their-attacker-at-church-9421040.html

12

Anybody know what happened in this lawsuit, Frank Otuo suing the WT of Britain and an elder for defamation?

by AndersonsInfo in

this lawsuit was discussed on jwn five months ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/284881/brave-ex-elder-sues-over-defamation-over-fraud-claims?size=20&page=2 .

anybody know what the present disposition is in this case?.

the following link is to the actual newspaper article: .

Still can't find the case via online searches, and no topix responses..These are only the ways I can find, for you to possibly get the information.
Please update us if you find anything on the case, or if you are going to try one of these avenues. Best of luck :)
------
"if you are unable to find what you are looking for, you can make a request by filling in this online form:"
https://www.justice.gov.uk/information-access-rights/foi-requests/make-an-foi-request-online
"Please be as specific as possible about the information you are seeking to obtain, such as by providing a specific time frame to assist staff in locating the information (for example, January 1999 to October 2000).Being specific in your request also makes it less likely it will be turned down on cost grounds.."
"You have the right to appeal these decisions and to have them investigated (see ‘What if I am unhappy with the response?’)"
-----
Also, the registers held by Trust Online cover the High court:
"England & Wales Section 2: High court judgments"
What you need to know to search the registers
"To search the registers, you need to give the full name and address of any person or business."
"The fee for a search of the England & Wales Register is £4 per section - you just choose the sections which will help you."
http://www.trustonline.org.uk/search-others
------
(Thanks to Splash finding that pdf, we now know the case was at the Queen's Bench)
To speak to Queen’s Bench court staff please telephone:020 7947 7772
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/rcj-rolls-building/queens-bench
------You will let us know if you find anything, won't you? Thanks for posting this, it's an interesting case.

76

WT loses appeal in UK!!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

the wt lost its appeals regarding the charity commission inquiry.

here is the ruling:.

http://www.charity.tribunals.gov.uk/documents/decisions/watch-tower-ruling-03mar15.pdf.

defender of truth

Article on original investigation:
" It emerged yesterday that the congregation held three “disfellowship” meetings during which the women were repeatedly asked to read a scripture on bearing false witness and consider what it meant. A source told theManchester Evening News: “They had to go through the abuse in detail and were asked if they encouraged it. One of the victims was asked if she had enjoyed it.“At the third meeting, Rose was present. He questioned the women in detail about the abuse with no one stepping in to stop bullying as would happen in court. The victims had already done this in court, which elders attended. But even though it was very distressing, they bravely went through it again.”
The spokesman said the church would not seek to shield those guilty of committing abuse and that elders were “responsible for shepherding the flock”.“When any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is accused of an act of child abuse, the local congregation elders are expected to investigate. If a victim wishes to address a matter, this can be done directly or in writing. No victims are forced to attend a meeting or confront an alleged perpetrator of child abuse,” it said in a statement.
Fay Maxted, chief executive of the Survivors’ Trust said: “This shows a complete lack of understanding of the impact of sexual abuse on a victim and of how a perpetrator might behave. It shows a complete disregard for any kind of child protection or safeguarding policies.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jehovahs-witness-abuse-victims-quizzed-by-their-attacker-at-church-9421040.html

12

Anybody know what happened in this lawsuit, Frank Otuo suing the WT of Britain and an elder for defamation?

by AndersonsInfo in

this lawsuit was discussed on jwn five months ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/284881/brave-ex-elder-sues-over-defamation-over-fraud-claims?size=20&page=2 .

anybody know what the present disposition is in this case?.

the following link is to the actual newspaper article: .

defender of truth

Hi Barbara. I've asked for help on topix, no response yet.

Also, seeing as the papers were lodged at the High Court, here is the phone number if anyone wants to ring and ask them..

RCJ High Court: 020 7947 6562

https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/royal-courts-of-justice

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

Whenindoubt.. I have no idea what you mean. I'll leave it to more intelligient people than myself to assess whether my post about judging God on page 48 should have been worded better. It had 1 like, so hopefully someone got what I was trying to say.

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Head-of-feathers, welcome to the discussion.

"Let's look at quarantine in illness briefly. The illness is contained so it doesn't spread beyond the quarantine area, but it would be awful to destroy everyone because they were exposed to the disease."

It would also be awful to allow an entire planet to be exposed to a disease for which you had the cure, especially a disease that you had originally designed and released yourself for the purpose of infecting just one species. Wouldn't you agree?

"I'll go out on a limb and argue that God didn't wipe them out because He wanted them to have that right to choose.."

What choice has any animal had in the matter? None. Is that fair?

"We opened the door to the spread of infection."

It's not that simple. Biblically speaking, God chose to threaten mankind with the 'infectious disease' if they didn't obey him, infected us when we disobeyed, then (according to your proposition) allowed the 'infection' to spread to innocent creatures, when he could have contained it at any point.

"Humans have to witness the suffering they caused when they in essence said to their 'author': ''We don't like your plan. We can do better."

So you are suggesting that a 'God of love' let mankind harm, infect and destroy his creatures to show that his way of doing things is correct?

"Do I believe that animals should suffer? No."

And on that we certainly agree.

It is an injustice that even the most creative believers in a loving God cannot defend, they generally seem to blame it on humans.. despite the fact that animals suffered before any 'original sin' is supposed to have occurred.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

"however some assumption’s made here are confused from Judgment to acknowledgement."

If the so-called caring God of popular theism is merely a construct of your mind and does not exist, the word acknowledgement wouldn't apply.

Can you explain what you mean?

12

Anybody know what happened in this lawsuit, Frank Otuo suing the WT of Britain and an elder for defamation?

by AndersonsInfo in

this lawsuit was discussed on jwn five months ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/284881/brave-ex-elder-sues-over-defamation-over-fraud-claims?size=20&page=2 .

anybody know what the present disposition is in this case?.

the following link is to the actual newspaper article: .

defender of truth

Ask this person, it was posted in february..

EXJW001

"You are wrong and ill -informed. In English the burden of proof rest on the accuser in all defamation cases. As I understand it Mr Otuo is neither a criminal nor has he ever been tried by any court in the world for fraud let alone convict of it. The most recent Judgement in this case 24/11/14 in the case; Watchtower's application to strike out the case was dismissed. Further comment defence no longer exist and prior to was only available to the press. "

http://m.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/TMT0T3FFKAUF233GS

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

I am very sorry, it wouldn't let me save when I edited that post, and I lost it all. Here is the cleaned up version, hope it was worth it..

[Fisherman, I appreciate your honesty in admitting that there is no justification for the amount of suffering that animals have had to endure. You have clearly given the topic some thought.]

FISHERMAN said "..who am I to judge God?"

Who are you to judge? Let me tell you something, YOU CAN JUDGE the God that you have chosen to believe in.

In fact, you already have done, if you think about it.

As a believer, you have trusted your judgement before, and you are trusting your ability to make a judgement every day that you continue to believe in him.

Can I ask you some questions, please?

Do you believe in a God?

Then you have already judged that he exists. (perhaps based on your experiences, and your view of the physical evidence that is available).

Do you believe in a God that is good?

If so, then you have already judged him, in a moral sense.

If you pray to and worship a God, you must see him as kind and just, otherwise you would not worship him?

That is how you judge his character.

Do you think that God's creation is good and worthy of praise?

If so, you have already judged his works.

You don't believe in a callous, malicious, incompetent God, do you? So you trust your judgement, as that is the basis for your beliefs.

A theist has (at the very least) judged that God exists, and that he has created us. Generally speaking, they often believe that he has good qualities. Also, they have generally judged for themselves that his creative works were good, at least to some extent.

These are judgements that many believers in a God have made, for different reasons.

So why are they cautious of judging the seemingly unloving qualities of God, or anything that makes it seem that God (if he existed) does not care for his creatures?

You can only judge whether the God that YOU have CHOSEN to believe in exists based on the available evidence, and the experiences of yourself and others throughout history.

There is no evidence of a God that cares for each of his creatures, and countless experiences that prove beyond doubt that he is either indifferent to the immense suffering of so many animals throughout history, or he designed them in that way and chooses to see them suffer.

Cofty brought up the point of species extinction. Would a caring God have allowed that to happen? Or would a caring God sit and watch as animals starve to death and die of cancer?

What evidence is there that he cares for, or takes care of, animals at all?

Take a look at the God you have chosen to believe in, with his total lack of concern for animals and so-called 'lesser species'... and decide whether he/she/it is worthy of worship, if a God were to even exist.

TO ALL THEISTS WHO BELIEVE IN A PERSONAL GOD, AND ESPECIALLY BELIEVERS IN THE 'LOVING' GOD OF THE BIBLE:

You don't need to go along with the views of your family or friends.

Unless you were brainwashed or brought up in a high control religious group, you've already judged for yourself that God exists, and also that he created us and cares about what happens to his creatures.

You have no doubt already used your own judgement to decide that God is good, and has created all things in a loving way, in order that they can live a good life according to his fair and just standards... unless you merely worship him out of fear.

Now take another step.

Look at the countless examples of animals that have suffered and died throughout history without doing anything wrong or 'sinful', then use YOUR OWN sense of morality to make YOUR OWN independent judgement of YOUR concept of God, no matter which one that you've chosen to believe in.

Write a list of your morals and principles, such as never leaving a person or animal to suffer and die when you could act, for example.

Would you cure an animal of cancer if you had the cure? Would you feel compelled to rescue an animal in pain from being abused?

Remember..

There is never any need to hold back from JUDGING either the character, morality, or the potential existence of the particular God that you believe in.. Because at some point, you already have done.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to face the conclusion that you may come to.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

prologos:

"so, possibly, during evolution, the suffering part of violent dying was suppressed, when it served no further survival advantage? "

Are you suggesting that animals do not suffer when being mauled, poisoned or dying from cancer?

I don't quite follow you.

43

The floodgates are about to open in the UK.. Sunday Times article

by defender of truth in

jehovah church faces flood of sex abuse cases.

"a woman who was abused from the age of four by a senior officer of the jehovahs witnesses has lodged a 500,000 claim for compensation in a test case that could open the door to hundreds more suits involving members of the religious organisation in the uk.".

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/crime/article1525363.ece.

defender of truth

Bttt for any who missed this.

Go to page 1 for a scan of the article